PizzaTime's business exploded during the pandemic as companies looked for ways to engage remote employees.
The company, which offers catering to remote teams, reaped the benefits and transformed itself into a high-growth entity.
But as more people start going back to the office, PizzaTime has to re-strategize.
In this episode of Marketing Spark, Matthew Carnevale talks about the different marketing growth tools being applied.
This includes doubling down on customers and referrals, leveraging a blog and newsletter, and talking to customers on a regular basis.
Auto-generated transcript. Speaker names, spelling, and punctuation may be slightly off.
Mark Evans: Sometimes companies emerge out of necessity. An entrepreneur has a problem and create something to fix it. Pizza time is a prime example. In 2017, Josh Gross ran a digital agency called Planetary. He wanted to throw a pizza party for his team, which worked and worked remotely around the world. He took some manual work, and the experience was so good that Gross realized that he was onto something. In 2019, Planetary launched Pizza Time, which would organize virtual pizza parties for distributed teams. It was a good idea, but the timing was wrong, so Gross shelved the program. And then COVID emerged. And Josh's team went about reviving Pizza Time. The order started to roll in. To get some insight into Pizza Time and how it attracted new customers and how it's driving sales, I'm excited to be talking to Matt Carnevale, head of growth for Pizza Time. Welcome to Marketing Spark.
Matt Carnevale: Hey, Mark. Thanks for having me. Yeah. You, you pretty much nailed the story there. But, yeah, I appreciate you having me on, and, obviously, super excited to chat about my journey with Pizza Time.
Mark Evans: Why don't we start by talking about how you arrived to Pizza Time? You've been there since last September. What were you doing before? What was it like starting a new job at a time when everybody is and was working remotely?
Matt Carnevale: I started my career in marketing about three years ago or four years ago at a company, One Local. OneLocal is a small business marketing software company. I actually started in sales, and then after about six months transitioned into growth. There, I was doing everything from sales enablement, partnerships, content, you name it, everything in between. And then, yeah, last last summer, I stumbled upon Pizza Time. I thought they had a really cool story. They seem to kinda hit the growth pedal at the right time, so I figured it was a good time to jump on board. You know, my last company was, we had a big sales team. We are a software company, venture backed, and, you know, Pizza Time is quite the opposite. We actually have zero sales reps. We're fully bootstrapped, and we're more of a service company as opposed to software.
Mark Evans: For the uninitiated people who haven't used Pizza Time, describe to me how the service works, and what are the use cases? What kind of customers or what kind of companies are taking advantage of the service?
Matt Carnevale: In essence, Pizza Time is a virtual catering company. We supply food and drinks for remote meetings for, you know, employees across the world. In terms of kinda how it works, it's pretty straightforward. Let's say somebody has, you know, a a meeting with their remote sales team that's spread across North America or even global. They'll just let us know the date and time of the meeting, and then we send out an invite to all the attendees, across the world. And then at the time of the meeting, we just send out food to everybody. And we lean on, you know, local delivery apps, whether it's DoorDash, Uber Eats, or, you know, internationally, whoever their local delivery partners are. Yeah. In terms of the use cases, like I said, it can be for internal meetings. It could be, you know, virtual socials, happy hours, or even virtual conferences and webinars is a big use case as well.
Mark Evans: So you find this new opportunity. You get excited about what Pizza Time is doing. What were your biggest growth priorities and challenges going into the job? What were they looking for you to do? Because, obviously, during COVID, the idea not only resonated, but it got some traction. And as a bootstrap company, obviously, every dollar counts. So when they hired you, what were they looking for you to do, and what did you see as some of the things that you needed to do as a growth person to get the company to the next level?
Matt Carnevale: Yeah. Great question. So when I was brought on, you know, I was pretty much hired to define our growth strategy. So we were essentially at the time doing very, very little marketing. A lot of the growth for Pizza Time was product led. People would use our product and it the word would spread throughout big companies or, you know, people would use us in virtual conferences, and then attendees at the conference would go use us for their own company. So that's how our growth kinda happened before I joined. And then when I joined, it was like, okay. Let's let's figure out how to keep growing and tap into new channels. For me, it was my first time ever doing that even though I came from, you know, another start up. So, really, like, the first couple of things I was looking to do was, okay. Let's let's go talk to some customers. Let's get an idea for, you know, what problem we're solving and why they already buy from us and where they buy from. Another big one was looking at the data. So looking at what already exists, whether that's our Google Analytics or CRM, anything like that. And then from there, some of the things that emerged from that discovery was I had to pretty much set up, our data structure. So we had some data in, our CRM, but none of it was appended to any of our, you know, marketing software like SendGrid, etcetera. So I have to make sure that we had all the proper data, so that I could run campaigns, and they would actually look like targeted personalized campaigns. But another, you know, a big project that I kinda worked on in the very beginning, and this kinda taps into your point of us not having, you know, a massive budget where we can waste money, is I set up a reengagement funnel, an email reengagement funnel. So anybody who hadn't purchased from us in greater than ninety days, they were added to an email sequence, which essentially re incentivized them to, you know, make a purchase with us. It was, like, a four step sequence, and it's still running to this day, and it still helps us recover, you know, two to three new customers every single week. And the reason why I think it was great, great project to work on from day one was because I wasn't I didn't need to ask for any marketing budget. I didn't need to ask for, you know, ad budget, whatever. It's just like, hey. I'm gonna create this sequence, and it's gonna recoup some old customers. And I think, you know, people tend to look at new customers as a way to impress your boss. Hey. I could bring new customers to the business, but a great place to start for, like, an early marketer is, like, who are the people who haven't showed up for demos or haven't bought in a while? And let's try and get them back into our funnel. Usually leads to some, like, early wins, you know, early on.
Mark Evans: I think that's one of the things about new marketers. When they start, there's an expectation that they're gonna deliver results. But the reality is is you have to build confidence. You have to make your boss recognize that you've got some ideas, that you are gonna grow in the long term, but in the short term, you're looking for quick wins. And if you can do that really in a cost effective way, that's even better. So did you find that that reengagement exercise helped validate what you wanted to do and gave the organization some more confidence in marketing?
Matt Carnevale: Yeah. I would say so. I like, already within the first couple weeks of it running, like, we were able to get some purchases on the board. And I think, you know, as a marketer, like, everything you do ideally is is gonna be tied back to revenue. So if in the first couple weeks, you could already show the CEO, like, hey. I've already paid back a bit of my salary. I think that's a, you know, a really, really great win.
Mark Evans: So you've been there for about eight months. What does your job look like in terms of your priorities and challenges versus eight months ago? Eight months ago in the online world, in this COVID world, it's is fluid and dynamic, and there's no such thing as anything written in stone. Everything's sort of written in sand. What are the biggest changes that you've had to make or things that you've had to pivot on or maybe programs that you've had to launch?
Matt Carnevale: I would say, like, overarching, you know, our service is really dependent on remote companies needing it. You know, that's where our demand is derived from. So, you know, we in the last eight months, a lot of companies have sent employees back to work back to work in an office. So people who may have been our customers eight months ago are no longer customers, and our total addressable market has shrunk over the last eight months, which is obviously never easy to deal with. But I think, from a strategy standpoint, you know, in the past, it was like, hey. If you are an HR director or if you are a team leader, we have this great tool that's gonna help you increase morale and, build, you know, engagement in your team. We we can no longer use those broad approaches. Now we have to get a lot more targeted. So, you know, for example, if we did a cold email campaign in the past, we can just collect emails for any HR director because every company is remote. Now what we have to do is we have to look at, you know, intent data. So we have to look at, you know, is this company actually hiring remote employees? If we are, we know they're remote companies, so then we can hit them up with an email and say, hey. We got this great tool for you. So I'd say, like, overarching, like, high level speaking. Now I have to get a lot more targeted in who I go after, and I have to look for those and scrape those intense signals. Whereas in the past, I had the luxury of assuming, you know, 99% of companies were fully remote.
Mark Evans: So that's really interesting when your total addressable market shrinks dramatically in a short period of time and your entire sales and marketing effort is built on this certain type of behavior, and that is no longer the case. So one of the questions that I curious to have you answer is intent intent data. Where does that come from? What sources do you access and scrape? Where do you get that data?
Matt Carnevale: I would say, like, you know, like I mentioned, the big one is looking at job boards. If a company, they usually will say beside the job posting remote, or if not in the in the headline, they say it's somewhere in the posting. So let's say whether it's on on-site, hybrid, or remote. So that's a really, really valuable data point for us, and, you know, it's something we can pull off the web, whether it's manually or through tech. So that's a really big one for us. Another one, like I mentioned, the big use case for our product is virtual conferences and virtual webinars. Well, a lot of companies post online, you know, where or if they're having a virtual conference upcoming. So we can do some reverse engineering there. Right? Let's say company x y zed is having a virtual conference in June, then we can look for the the contact on LinkedIn. We can get their email, and then we can hit them up with an email saying, hey. Like, we know you have we have have a conference in three months. You know, we have this great tool that's gonna allow you to do x. Why don't we have a conversation? So those are kind of the the two bigger ones. You know, on the topic of virtual events and webinars, there's sites like Eventbrite, which gives us, like, a huge list of virtual events upcoming. So we just try to tap into that, usually.
Mark Evans: So I'm clear, is Pizza Time just pizza, or do you cater all kinds of different foods and beverages and things like that?
Matt Carnevale: We actually have five different services. I'll just really, really quickly walk through them. So we have our Pizza Time service, which is pizza delivery to remote employees across the world. We have a lunch service, which is just an expanded menu. So it's like pizza, burgers, salads, things like that. We also do coffee and pastries for morning meetings. We have alcohol delivery for happy hours, and then we also have virtual experiences. So it can be, like, a hosted bingo or trivia or something like that.
Mark Evans: Obviously, remote employees, remote events are the sweet spot for pizza time. But what about all the people going back to the office? After two years away, you would think that a lot of HR managers and a lot of bosses in general are wanna do things to build culture and and teamwork and make people feel connected to the organization again. Are is that an opportunity for Pizza Time to tap into into that demand to get your employees feeling like a team all over again?
Matt Carnevale: So we definitely have explored supporting, on-site team building or even hybrid company team building. But the only reason it's not as attractive for us is because, you know, we're a super niche product, and we've always done well because we're so niche and specific. There's already companies who are really, really good at, you know, team building for in office companies, And we we just think it would be a lot tougher to compete there. We know like, we've already carved out our part of the market, and we know we do it well. And we know a lot of people are loyal to us specifically for what we do. So it's not to say we would never consider it, but at the moment, virtual only is still our priority for the foreseeable future.
Mark Evans: So over the past eight months, what have been some of the biggest challenges that you run into as a as a growth marketer? You know, the market has changed on you. It's shifting as we speak right now. Has it been the need to pivot? How have you quantified when the time is to do things differently? Talk talk to me about sort of the marketing channels that you're you're leveraging and some of the ones that you're now starting to explore.
Matt Carnevale: Like, it kinda goes back to a point about, you know, the total addressable market has shrunk. So five months ago, you know, I would run a campaign on Facebook that targeted you know, I use detailed targeting, and anybody that was a HR manager, director, or whatever was somebody who's a good fit for us. So now we can no longer do that. So some of the things that we're trying to tap into now is, you know, more specific bottom of funnel, activities. So an example is, we're building out a bunch of landing pages that target, you know, really specific keywords that only get, like, you know, 10 to 30 searches a month. But the reason we're doing that is because those are the the searches are so specific, and we're really one of the only companies that can solve that issue. So we're putting the time and effort to invest in those because we know that we can actually solve that problem. We're starting to you know, we know a lot of our growth has come from our existing customers, but we're putting a lot of effort now behind our referral program. Because like I said, you know, the top of funnel is not as clear to us anymore. We don't we don't know 100% who needs our product and who doesn't. So we're letting our existing customers fuel that growth. And the reason why we're betting on our existing customers being able to do that is because our customers work in, you know, big companies. And across these big companies, you know, a lot of the policies are the same. So, for example, if, you know, Amazon has one remote team that uses us, well, there could be a 100 other that could use us within the company because we know Amazon's a company that accepts remote remote working. So for us, we're betting on the fact that, you know, our customers are gonna know other people, other employees who are also remote first and spread the word of Pizza Time throughout their own company and their own networks.
Mark Evans: Couple of questions, couple of follow-up questions. One is in terms of the landing page strategy, without giving away state secrets, can you give me an example of a long tail keyword that you're building a landing page for? Because, obviously, if someone's looking for something like that, even if it's really, really niche y and you're the the result that comes up, that is great in terms of conversion. Can you provide an example of how that works in the real world?
Matt Carnevale: A really specific example would be how do I send pizza to remote employees across the world? I know it's kind of our our our spiel and our pitch, but that's something that it's not a high volume search whatsoever. I think it gets, like, 70 searches a month now. We're the only company who does it. It definitely works well for us. You know, another example is how do I send lunch to people who are in my remote sales kickoff meeting? Like, something as long tail as that. It's not something that everybody searches, but, again, we're one of the only companies who can fulfill that. So, you know, that that's worked really well for us.
Mark Evans: If you have a really good idea of your existing customer base and you can retarget them and reengage them, that's awesome. And that will drive, obviously, hopefully, the land and expand kind of strategy. But what about top of the funnel? Feels like there's a lack of clarity or is not as much clarity as you had, you know, six or eight months ago or a year ago. Is it a bit of a guessing game right now? What's your strategic approach to trying to drive top of the funnel activity when you're not really sure who it's gonna land with? Like, who is actually that target audience? Sounds like a really tough way to operate as a marketer.
Matt Carnevale: Yeah. It's super tough. It's gotten increasingly more difficult, and it's even difficult because, you know, I don't have a sales team, working side by side with me. So, you know, my last company, we had, like, 20 something sales reps doing cold calls every day. So we're getting a lot of immediate feedback as to what's going on in the market. Well, I'm not getting that. So what I've done is our blog strategy is super top of funnel. I know I said, like, we're working on landing pages that target long tail keywords, but our blog strategy is actually very top of funnel. And the reason we're doing that is I'm almost treating every blog post like a sales rep. Like, it's out there answering some broad question to somebody. Those posts are doing a lot of that top of funnel work and getting a lot of that attention. And then from there, what we can do is we could actually put a Facebook pixel on those blog posts and retarget the people that don't convert or don't take another action off that initial blog post. So, yeah, majority of our top to funnel efforts are are put into our blog right now.
Mark Evans: It's interesting because blogs aren't terribly sexy, and I think a lot of companies have even backed off blogs for ebooks and obviously creating a lot of content on LinkedIn these days. So what is the blog strategy? What are you trying to do with it? How many times do you post? What do you do with your blog posts in terms of distribution and repurposing content? That'd be really interesting to get some insight into somebody who's actually leveraging blogs in a very effective way. It sounds like that's what you're doing.
Matt Carnevale: So in terms of, like, the actual strategy itself, like I said, the keywords and topics that we're targeting are a lot higher level than those very specific landing pages. So an example would be, like, how do I create camaraderie among my remote team, or how do I keep remote employees engaged? That's a super high level topic. We're not even expecting somebody to convert off that post per se, but we're getting attention from, you know, HR managers, directors, people like that. So that's kind of the keywords and topics that we're going after. Right now, we're posting once a week, so quite frequently, and we use, you know, external writers to fulfill, you know, the content. So that's it for the, like, the actual writing itself. In terms of distribution, we repurpose a lot of our content for LinkedIn, albeit we don't have a big following. You don't get a ton of engagement, but we're trying to build up toward it. But another really big distribution channel for us is our newsletter. And I know that, you know, newsletters are not necessarily some new innovative tactic, but what we found, and, you know, I'm happy to touch more upon this, is when you send emails at roughly the same time every month with a bunch of value packed into them, the open rate for them starts to go up quite significantly. You know, I know this for myself. Like, whenever I get newsletters that I think are really, really good, like, I won't even open them until I'm ready to read the entire thing. Like, I'll either star them or leave them on unread. So we've shifted away from, like, spammy email strategy to now, like, packing in all of our good blog content into there and not even really asking for a conversion. Like, we're not saying, here's a great blog post, but also buy our product. It's like, here's just value. Just here. Here's, like, something great to read. And our open rate has gone up, and, you know, with that, over time, we've seen our engagement within our newsletter go up too.
Mark Evans: Yeah. I'm a big believer in in newsletters. I just think the idea of touching your customer on a regular basis and providing value added information is has so many so many good benefits. And I would I would love to get the Pizza Time approach to the newsletter. How often do you send it? What kind of content are you putting into the newsletter? Is it all native content? Do you create content? What's the overall what are you trying to do, and how do you do it?
Matt Carnevale: Yeah. Yeah. Great question. So, we send it once a month. We send it on the third Thursday every month. So even though our customers aren't paying attention to that, somewhere in their brain, it's predictable. What I do is since we post once a week in our blog and our newsletter goes at once once a month, I summarize our four blog posts in, you know, maybe one paragraph or in a couple bullet points. So what I do is I'll go through the content, and I'll say, like, okay. If I had to summarize this, what would I write? And I just rewrite that or have somebody rewrite it. So we have our most important snippets from every single post. So if somebody were to skim it, that's what they'd get from it. To summarize our blog content, I usually I'll include maybe a link to another really interesting article that's not ours. So I'll give a backlink somewhere, do something like I'll talk about what we just launched or what we're working on right now because our genuine belief is that our customers care about that. I mean, they care about what it does for them, but we believe it's something that our customers want. So we're okay talking about that and not making it too salesy. And then last but not least, I always like to include some sort of funny meme or joke in there just to kinda make them smile or lighten up their day. And, you know, I'll also talk about what Pizza Time has in store for the coming month. So it's kind of like a summary of, like, a bunch of great content and then, you know, what's next and, you know, some other stuff they may find useful.
Mark Evans: So in terms of drawing the list, customers will automatically be opted into the newsletter, and they can opt out if they want to.
Matt Carnevale: Yeah. That's how we've treated it.
Mark Evans: And how do you add non customers who may wanna be part of the experience. Do you try to do that at all? Is that part of the overall growth strategy?
Matt Carnevale: Yeah. Totally. So what we'll do is, like, if we're running other let's say we're doing, like, a Facebook campaign and, you know, somebody had, you know, opted in to receive some emails from us but never converted, those are people we move over to our newsletter. And we'll let them know, like, hey. Unless you explicitly say you don't wanna be included, we're gonna add you to our newsletter going on next month. And not too many people drop off, so we have that. Directly on our blog page. There are people who, you could sign up right from there. So we have a subscribe option right from our newsletter. And then, you know, in other conversations with customers here and there or people who aren't customers, I'll always encourage them, hey. Like, check out our newsletter just to say in the loop. Yeah. That's pretty much the the couple ways in which we, get people into our newsletter.
Mark Evans: So in terms of channel perspective, you've got the weekly blog. You leverage some of the content for LinkedIn. You're running the newsletter. What are the other marketing channels that you're deploying?
Matt Carnevale: High level, we, we've been lately looking at, or we've been beefing up our referral program a lot, like I've saying. So we're using our existing customers, a ton. Another big one that we've done, which has worked pretty well for us, was, we're running a a campaign on on, Instagram where we are targeting HR directors and leaders. What we were saying to them was, hey. Like, if you work remotely, we have a great, obviously, service that helps you build morale and engagement. And to prove it to you, we'll send you a free lunch. You just have to attend our weekly webinar. So we would actually use our product. They would go through the process themselves of signing up for a lunch and receiving food. And then in the weekly webinar, like, I would just, you know, spend ten, fifteen minutes talking about a bit about pizza time and, you know, how they can place an order and our pricing and stuff like that, and that's worked really well for us. You know, we can't pour thousands of dollars into it, so it's a slow it actually is a slow growth strategy, but, the uptick has been really good because, we're putting our money, you know, where our mouth is.
Mark Evans: The other thing I wanted to ask you about is in terms of how do you quantify the success of your your marketing efforts? What are some of the what's the North Star that you have identified? And what are some of the KPIs that you and your boss have have decided that is how they're gonna assess whether you're actually doing your job well or not?
Matt Carnevale: So I would say the biggest one, the North Star metric for us is, quarterly transactions, not revenue. Obviously, we wanna see revenue go up, but the way our service works is our average order value or our order value is really dependent on how many people the person is ordering for. So if you're ordering food for a team of 10 people versus a 100, obviously, the 100 is gonna be a much bigger order. But what we actually wanna see is are more people buying our service. It's not are there big orders because we can't control how big the person's team is. So our North Star metric is definitely transactions, not revenue. So we wanna see that going up month over month. As an add on, again, we have those five different services that I mentioned earlier. We wanna see product awareness for those go up. A lot of our customers when I found out when I originally joined was they've used our pizza product, but they didn't even know we had a coffee product. So a big thing of mine is, like, from day one, I wanna build product awareness.
Mark Evans: What are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned over the last couple of years, both things that that you've learned because things have gone well, the things that you've learned because some things haven't gone as well as expected?
Matt Carnevale: So I'd say the biggest one for me is, like, 80% of projects, or at least in my stage of a company, early percent of 80% of projects are gonna fail, and 95 aren't gonna be right the first time. That was a tough pill to swallow, but, you know, it's kinda comforting knowing that, hey. Like, the majority of things aren't supposed to work anyway, but it's about finding the 20% that's going to. And if something doesn't work on day one, that's okay. Like, change it and try it again. It's not just about giving up right away. So that was a really big one. Another big one is your customers are your best friend. Gotta go in and talk to your customers from day one and then keep doing it every single week forever. Like, don't stop. They're gonna tell you what to work on. They're gonna tell you how to market to them, what to write, what problems to write about. So that was a really big one. And then very, very last was just understanding the data. So having a really good understanding of, like, you know, depending on what your company is, you know, what your monthly revenue is, what your churn rate is, what your repeat purchase rate is, everything. Like, get a good understanding so that when you're in those conversations with your team and your CEO, you can back up your decision making with data as opposed to just your thoughts.
Mark Evans: I love that you mentioned talking to customers as a key element for your success because it's something that I talk about a lot. And it's something that I see a lot on LinkedIn because it's there's a lot of marketers don't know their customers very well or at all, and I think is that they operate in a silo. They're very they're busy tapping on the on their keyboards and looking at their dashboards and using different tools, but they don't engage with customers. Like, how do you find out what your customers are thinking and what they want, what they don't want to you? What's this the tactical approach to doing that?
Matt Carnevale: You know, really simply, what I do is, you know, I go into our CRM. I look at our customers for the last fifty days, and I just I ran I don't handpick. I just randomly choose people that have purchased. They could've used us once or a 100 times. Doesn't matter to me. And all I ask them for is fifteen minutes of their time. No gift cards. Nothing. Most people are willing to help. And, you know, it's just a matter of asking them, you know, why they use our product, what problems do we solve for them, asking them how they found us, you know, asking them for just general feedback, good and bad, asking them how their team, like using us. Yeah. I I just try and, you know, I make the conversation as natural as possible, but it's just getting an idea of, like, okay. Why do you use us? How did you find us? And, you know, generally, you know, would you use us again? Why or why not? What are some things we can improve on?
Mark Evans: And the reaction is pretty positive when you do the outreach and ask them to jump on a call with you?
Matt Carnevale: Of course. You know, the majority of people don't get on the call, but we still have, like, a 20%, I would say, yes rate. And I've never had anyone say, like, you know, stop. This is annoying. Everyone seems to be, cool with it. So we've had a really good uptick.
Mark Evans: Curious about the fact that you work for a company that serves people who work remotely. Have you ever met anybody who works for Planetary or Pizza Time? And if so, what was that like?
Matt Carnevale: No. I haven't. It it kinda sucks. I mean, I'm a I'm a people person, and I definitely like like meeting people in person. My last company, you know, I had a blast with my colleagues, and some of them are still some of my best friends to date. You know, it's a challenge for sure. I I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. I wish I could meet them in person, and, you know, it's definitely something that, you know, I look for is, like, you know, meeting my colleagues in person.
Mark Evans: Well, I can think that maybe an excuse to go to Brooklyn might be a good thing down the road at some point in time.
Matt Carnevale: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
Mark Evans: This has been a great conversation. Where can people learn about you and Pizza Time?
Matt Carnevale: You can visit my LinkedIn, Matthew Carnevale, Pizza Time Toronto, Ontario. In terms of Pizza Time itself, go to www.pizzatime.xyz. And, you know, if you ever want to reach out to me specifically about anything Pizza Time related, my email is super simple. It's my first name, matthewwith2t's,@pizzatime.xyz.
Mark Evans: Thank you, Matthew, for all the great insight. I love talking to marketers who can really get into the weeds and talk about how they're doing things, what works, what doesn't. Thanks everyone for listening to another episode of Marketing Spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave a review, subscribe via Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app, and share via social media. To learn more about how I help b to b SaaS companies as a fractional CMO, strategic adviser, and coach, send an email to mark@markevans.ca, or connect with me on LinkedIn. I'll talk to you soon.